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View Full Version : SitePoint PR disaster continues!



FPU
03-17-2006, 06:48 AM
Sitepoint can't do anything right, they have ruined themselves in the marketplace and this is not the only forum that is discussing the Titanic disaster we call Sitepoint.

Chris is lucky that his association ended with these guys, they suck more everyday!

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=65886

The tide has turned on Sitepoint, as I have mentioned, unless the founders address this community instead of hiding like cowards I expect things to get much worse for them!

SEbasic
03-17-2006, 07:10 AM
That's not really fair anthony ~ they are charging for a service.

If people don't want to pay then that's their choice, but you can't blame them for wanting to make money out of their business.

It is a business afterall.

FPU
03-17-2006, 07:13 AM
I did not start the thread SE, I have other issues with Sitepoint management like them taking signatures down to guest view so they can sell advertising to members in their market place!

Do you think it is fair for a forum owner to steal content from those that create it, the authors of the threads that are the main assets of any forum?

SEbasic
03-17-2006, 07:18 AM
I did not start the thread SE, I have other issues with Sitepoint management like them taking signatures down to guest view so they can sell advertising to members in their market place!I'm not going to get involved with the rest of it because I don't think that complaining about it will help anything.

All I will say is that they are running a business and it's pretty much up to them how they want to make money out of it.

If people don't like how they do it, they'll go elsewhere.

Frankly if someone posting a job can't afford a measly ten bucks, I'd be VERY worried about working for them.

And I know you didn't start that thread. :)

FPU
03-17-2006, 07:21 AM
The larger question in all this is how Sitepoint administrators come up with idiotic policy???

They must sit around all day long thinking about how they can suck more blood out of each member! :goof: :rage:

PS: I think they need a Public Relations firm at this point because they really don't know what the hell they are doing!

KLB
03-17-2006, 07:36 AM
Maybe their hope is to kill off the looking to hire forum. Arguably it isn't a core function for SPF. I do think that SPF has become overwhelmed by newbies as was pointed out in the digitalpoint thread. From SP's perspective this might be desirably because they are the ones who most need to buy SP's books. People who know what they are doing don't need to buy SP's books. So from a business perspective what SP is doing might be a smart business move even if it isn't good for the SPF community.

FPU
03-17-2006, 07:37 AM
Chris got out at the right time for sure!

They did him a major favor, he will look back at it as a gift from God.

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 07:45 AM
Maybe their hope is to kill off the looking to hire forum. Arguably it isn't a core function for SPF. I do think that SPF has become overwhelmed by newbies as was pointed out in the digitalpoint thread. From SP's perspective this might be desirably because they are the ones who most need to buy SP's books. People who know what they are doing don't need to buy SP's books. So from a business perspective what SP is doing might be a smart business move even if it isn't good for the SPF community.

Thats my impression as well. That section was a mess most of the time. I think they just decided that they would try to make some money while decreasing its profile significantly.

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:07 AM
The tide has turned on Sitepoint, as I have mentioned, unless the founders address this community instead of hiding like cowards I expect things to get much worse for them!

Here we go with the drama.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:20 AM
Here we go with the drama.

Funny, I am not the one hurting Sitepoint, it is their own management and their lack of communication with the community!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:22 AM
Funny, I am not the one hurting Sitepoint, it is their own management and their lack of communication with the community!

Well, I'm a member of the community and I think it was a wise move.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:24 AM
Sort of like taking signatures down to guest view so they could sell more listings and advertising was......

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:30 AM
Why shouldn't they?

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:35 AM
Sort of like taking signatures down to guest view so they could sell more listings and advertising was......

Don't see the harm. I didn't post there to get backlinks. Thats not the point of forums.

KLB
03-17-2006, 08:38 AM
Well, I'm a member of the community and I think it was a wise move.

I'd probably have to agree with this. Marketplace type stuff is really a distraction from SPF primary mission and the marketplace was really getting out of control. To me it makes perfect sense to put fees on marketplace activities.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:41 AM
There are better ways to do it, you can limit the amount of posts that members can make, Sitepoint has a plan to extract as much money per member as possible!

That is the reason that signatures were taken down, to force members to buy advertising in their marketplace!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:49 AM
There are better ways to do it, you can limit the amount of posts that members can make, Sitepoint has a plan to extract as much money per member as possible!

That is the reason that signatures were taken down, to force members to buy advertising in their marketplace!

1. Sitepoint is the business of making money.
2. Why would this force members to buy advertising? 90% of forum poster don't use forums to advertise there site. Thats not why forums exist and thats not why people post on them.

KLB
03-17-2006, 08:51 AM
There are better ways to do it, you can limit the amount of posts that members can make,
SitePoint is a business and they are trying to generate revenue. Being able to posting stuff in the marketplace is obviously in high demand. Since people who posts stuff in the marketplace, are doing such to make money, it only makes sense for the entity hosting the marketplace also be able to make money from hosting the marketplace.


Sitepoint has a plan to extract as much money per member as possible!

Of course they do SitePoint is a business. The purpose of a business is to earn profits.


That is the reason that signatures were taken down, to force members to buy advertising in their marketplace!
I don't think this was the reason. I think the reason was to prevent PR bleed. I didn't like that SP turned off sigs for guests, but it was within their rights to do this.

If SPF members don't like SP's policies, they are free to find other forums that offer similiar services with more agreeable policies. I'm sure Chris would be more than happy to welcome those members here.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:59 AM
That is a big lie, PR loss can be eliminated if it is even a factor by no follow tags, that is what destroyed SEO Chat, I guess Sitepoint managers are just as bad as SEO Chat administration!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:12 AM
That is a big lie, PR loss can be eliminated if it is even a factor by no follow tags, that is what destroyed SEO Chat, I guess Sitepoint managers are just as bad as SEO Chat administration!

Except nobody cares about PR loss. Like I have said many times. People don't post on forums to get backlinks. Some do but they often have little to contribute. Like that guy who just posts news. Thats not a forum I want to belong to. SEOChat might be different because its all about SEO.

Furthermore, Sitepoint has had that policy for along time now, so its not like they lost it, it's more like they never got it.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:15 AM
Signatures may not be important to you, but to the majority they are and they don't post on forums that are content stealing criminals like Sitepoint is!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:21 AM
Signatures may not be important to you, but to the majority they are and they don't post on forums that are content stealing criminals like Sitepoint is!

1. The majority does not care.
2. How are they stealing content? Your freely posting there. Nobody is forcing you to. I suppose what you mean is that your not getting things back like backlinks. But again thats not a reason to post. You post to give knowledge, share knowledge and be apart of a community all of which I give and getback from posting. Backlinks are perks. They have nothing to do with the means of posting on a forum.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:27 AM
Right, we have put up polls within threads asking members what they think, some of them are as high as 90% saying that forums should run signatures for guests, I guess that shoots your statements into a dark hole big time!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:28 AM
90% of what? two people? Show me these polls.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:31 AM
90% of what? two people? Show me these polls.


http://www.adminfusion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1588&page=2

We are not all brainwashed Sitepoint flunkies out here man!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:42 AM
1. 26 people is meaningless.
2. Your poll is vague. Of course people feel it is important. As do I. The question should would you leave, boycott, call evil and make fun of a forum if a forum did not have signatures on?
3. Did you even read the replys? Most people agreed with me that content matters gmore then the backlinks. And while it suck that a perk is gone, none of them showed signs that they would get as angry as you.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:46 AM
Really?

http://www.forumpostersunion.com/showpost.php?p=22&postcount=2

See the above, it shows that Sitepoint is not the only forum that took down signatures to guest view, we got two of them to put them back up after we put heat on them!

So you should support what is right, not the side you are on with content criminals at this time!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:48 AM
Which two?

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:50 AM
Read the threads, one forum is vBwebmaster!

The other one is filled with administration that are complete frauds that I will not give any publicity to!

SEbasic
03-17-2006, 09:52 AM
Anthony - they have no obligation to allow you signatures at all.

Where is the site TOS does it say they do?

If when you sign up to the forum it said 'in return for posting on the forums you will be provided with a signature in which you can place links to your sites' - then it would be theft.

As it is, they can do what they want, and I think most people understand that.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:55 AM
They took them down to increase fees paid to them SE, it is as simple as the greed in their bones when they found out webmasters would pay them to advertise in their marketplace!

There are many forums that offer the same for free plus give members signatures, so Sitepoint can suck an egg until they address my charges!

PS: I have to sign off, you guys have fun, later all......

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 10:02 AM
They took them down to increase fees paid to them SE, it is as simple as the greed in their bones when they found out webmasters would pay them to advertise in their marketplace!

There are many forums that offer the same for free plus give members signatures, so Sitepoint can suck an egg until they address my charges!

I think the fundamental difference between you and most others is the way your going about this. Yes, backlinks are important and you have every right to complain but your making this a personal crusade. Forums ARE allowed to make money if they want to. They are not evil or greedy because of this. If other sites offer then same calibure of information as Sitepoint with all the features you want, what are you waiting for? Leave.

On your cruisade you have been banned 3 times (at least) and at least two threads (probably more) have been locked because you can't handle rational arguements. We can all agree it is an important issue but its nothing to get suited up and war monger for.

Sitepoint as others have every right to use SEO to their advantage just as you use it to yours. Your sites are completely jam packed with keywords, so much so its almost unreadable. Should we boycott you for having an unreadable site?

BOYCOTT ALL FPU SITES, THEY ARE UNREADABLE AND THE PAGE GOES DOWN TOO FAR AND HE IS USING TABLES OMG!!!!!

Stupid no? Just take it easy man. Move on and forget about these sites. There are like billions of forums you can go to. AND! oh my gosh! you can make your own!

Cutter
03-17-2006, 11:28 AM
All Sitepoint is doing is giving a bigger oppurtunity to places like websitepublisher.net and digitalpoint. I don't remember even looking in their job posting section, let alone posting anything in it, but I'm sure other people have. When big sites drop the ball its their loss. Considering that we are all in the for-profit internet publishing business I don't see how this is worth arguing about.

GTAce
03-17-2006, 01:34 PM
I don't really have time to read all of this, but I'm sure it's the same thing I've read a hundred times...I just wanted to say, regarding the thread he linked to here -


http://www.adminfusion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1588&page=2

We are not all brainwashed Sitepoint flunkies out here man!

Yes, the majority agree with his poll, but if you will notice, we do not agree with the way he is going about this...The thread got out of hand at AdminFusion and we were forced to close it. Anthony, you need to calm down with your stance on these things...you have a valid point but are taking it way too far. Nobody is going to boycott Sitepoint over this, it's just so stupid.

FPU
03-17-2006, 04:23 PM
The thread got out of hand, that is a joke for sure, I would say that you over reacted to a few members that really did not have their act together that made idiotic comments!

Let me be honest, I don't like the way you run your forum, your administration borders on a teacher watching a bunch of grade school kids making sure none of them say any bad words!

Why not tell us about the posts that were removed for no reason and give us a valid reason on why you closed the thread ???

FPU
03-17-2006, 04:46 PM
90% of what? two people? Show me these polls.

Here is another one at almost 90% saying Sitepoint is wrong man!

http://www.seorefugee.com/forums/general-off-topic-topics/1759-major-issue-all-forum-members-2.html

They should address my charges like I told them on day one!

Jon
03-17-2006, 04:54 PM
You know, it's not necessarily such a bad thing for them to do if you think about it. $10 to post a job posting, that's pretty cheap. I mean, I'd definitely prefer it to stay free, but also adding a small posting fee weeds out about 99% of the non-serious and spam posters. Of course, if it were me I'd add a lot more ads and continue to keep things free, but that's just me. I'm sure they considered going that route, but figured since their sell a site section does so well, then so will their job posting section. I don't think it's a disaster whatsoever. If anything people will just get a bit more serious about what they post I guess.

This does however give Website Publisher and Digital Point an advantage of revamping their forum and adding sections like those, because free or not, they definitely do give a bored lurker something to look at and keeps them interested on their site. I've always found myself lurking on those sections in SPF and WHT just because they are sometimes very interesting to read.

FPU
03-17-2006, 04:59 PM
DP already has a marketplace that is active, it is FREE.

We have one at our forum too, it is FREE, it was just started, but we are not going to let offers that are bad stand, they will be deleted if they are spam!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 05:02 PM
Dude, how can you get so angry about this kind of stuff? Take a breath!

deronsizemore
03-17-2006, 06:42 PM
I don't understand what is going on here? I mean, is there really an argument over this? WHO CARES! If you don't like it, don't ever visit SitePoint again, right?

I just see it as they are a business, business' try to make money, SitePoint is no different. They don't run the site and all of the features just for fun, it's to make money.

FPU
03-17-2006, 06:58 PM
Go tell the people at Digital Point to quit talking about it and all of the other forums too while you are at it. :eek:

FPU
03-17-2006, 07:02 PM
Another thing guys, since the signature issue means nothing to you Sitepoint supporters, please show us your dedication by taking your signatures down here! :bawling: :eek2:

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 07:55 PM
Done.

deronsizemore
03-17-2006, 07:56 PM
Done.

FPU
03-17-2006, 07:58 PM
Thanks guys, you are true Sitepoint company men, getting screwed everywhere you go! :lol: :lol: :idea:

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:08 PM
Thanks guys, you are true Sitepoint company men, getting screwed everywhere you go! :lol: :lol: :idea:

How am I getting screwed. I get out of forums just what I expect to. Knowledge not backlinks.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:15 PM
You have been sold out by Sitepoint administrators and just can't see it man, I guess they have brainwashing skills or you just don't want to let "The Community" down because you and others know better, you just live in silly fear is all.

I do what is right, not what my friends think is right!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:20 PM
Uh, yea. Power to the people. Note my sig.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:21 PM
Thanks for joining us man! :eek: :eek:

Can you take your signature down on Sitepoint to logged in viewers too?? :p

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:23 PM
You have been sold out by Sitepoint administrators and just can't see it man, I guess they have brainwashing skills or you just don't want to let "The Community" down because you and others know better, you just live in silly fear is all.

I do what is right, not what my friends think is right!

The greatest brainwashers often accuse the otherside of brainwashing. At this point your just resorting to rethoric, because you have nothing logical or rational to say.

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:24 PM
How would you know if I did? You are boycotting them! What an activist you are!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:25 PM
The irony of it was that my sig didn't contain backlinks to my sites - it contained links to charities.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:25 PM
The greatest brainwashers often accuse the otherside of brainwashing. At this point your just resorting to rethoric, because you have nothing logical or rational to say.

Really?

Funny, that is what I have thought of all of your posts since you started posting on this subject, you make ZERO SENSE at all, just look at the polls, you have ZERO support too!

Jon
03-17-2006, 08:27 PM
Thanks for joining us man! :eek: :eek:

Can you take your signature down on Sitepoint to logged in viewers too?? :p

I think you need to calm down and accept that SitePoint, although they've changed directions, they also happen to have over 100,000 members. True, the large majority are probably inactive, but even so, they have finally built up the user base to that level, so they are totally entitled to assist in the hosting bills by charging the people in the classified section cash to post. I know if I owned SP I'd be whoring out banner ad space like a mad man. I'm kind of surprised they aren't going that route instead, but I guess not everyone is as money hungry as me. ;)

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:27 PM
Really?

Funny, that is what I have thought of all of your posts since you started posting on this subject, you make ZERO SENSE at all, just look at the polls, you have ZERO support too!

This is your problem. There is no debate because you wont touch the issue. You just continue to attack me personally.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:29 PM
What issue, your blind support of idiotic policies at Sitepoint ????

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:30 PM
What issue, your blind support of idiotic policies at Sitepoint ????

Fine. How is it an idiotic policy?

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:30 PM
Even the tone of FPU's posts are manic. I'm afraid he's gonna lose it.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:32 PM
Fine. How is it an idiotic policy?

I guess you have a real hard time understanding the issues, go back and read all the threads and all those that are linked within them, I am not going to write them again just for you big boy!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:36 PM
Fine. I guess you quit then.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:41 PM
There must be something really wrong with you, go back and read the threads linked if you want information, there were a few linked within this thread, or you can go back to Sitepoint and agree with everything your buddies say over there so you can be happy!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:43 PM
Yep. There's something wrong with him. And everyone else. And Sitepoint. They are all out to get you FPU! All of them! They are brainwashed! Run!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:44 PM
There must be something really wrong with you, go back and read the threads linked if you want information, there were a few linked within this thread, or you can go back to Sitepoint and agree with everything your buddies say over there so you can be happy!

I'm sorry, but with you being leader of FPU I thought you would rise to occation and give me nice summary of your arguments. Oh well.

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:44 PM
You guys do remind me of brain dead zombies for sure Sagewing! :eek2: :idea:

PS: Click on my signature if you want to learn more about the issues man!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:47 PM
You guys do remind me of brain dead zombies for sure Sagewing! :eek2: :idea:

Why the personal attack?

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:49 PM
PS: Click on my signature if you want to learn more about the issues man!

Nothing in the news thread was an argument. For example:

1. Why is Sitepoint guilty of content theft?
2. Where is the fraud?
3. Why are these "criminal actions"?

FPU
03-17-2006, 08:52 PM
Why the personal attack?

It may be because you insult yourself, you know the issues well and keep asking what the issues are, you must have some serious problems, one of mine is you continuing to waste my time with simple questions when you already know the answers!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:53 PM
Yes, the issues:

1) Famine in Africa
2) War in Middle East
3) FPU upset about signature thing

OH and also the brainwashing! Yea, the issues! What would we do without you?

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 08:56 PM
It may be because you insult yourself, you know the issues well and keep asking what the issues are, you must have some serious problems, one of mine is you continuing to waste my time with simple questions when you already know the answers!

I know what I think about the issues, but I have yet to hear a coherent arguement from you. A start would be anwsering my questions.

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 08:57 PM
Ok FPU. I clicked on the link . You are claiming that sitepoint is committing a crime by removing the sigs, if I am understanding. I don't think that's a crime.

But, by making that assertion, couldn't you be committing some kind of libelous act? A crime!

FPU is a criminal! :)

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:03 PM
Right, keep talking guys, we all know that you guys get on Sitepoint and brown nose each other there, we can all read the praise the advisor crap you guys produce, a lot of *** kissing going on hey guys?

Read this to understand more of the criminal actions of Sitepoint management!

http://www.seorefugee.com/forums/18837-post12.html

They are exploiting threads I created years ago to this very day without giving me credit, so I may have a lawsuit when they are ready to file their charges against me guys, I can't wait!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 09:08 PM
Oh yea that link really clarified things. The only criminal thing around her is your total inability to make a point.

FPU, I think you are just some high school kid who likes conflict. I like a little tussle myself, but this is getting boring.

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:11 PM
They are afraid that guests will leave the site and not click on their ads, so they rip off contributors that author their threads by not showing their signatures to guests!

They are exploiting threads that I did years ago to this very day, Sitepoint Sucks man!

1. I don't see the connection between sitepoints ads and user signatures. Why would turning them off, make people more likely to clicks sitepoints ads?
2. I am not sure how they are exploiting your threads? I don't have to pay to view them do I? So how are the being exploited?

moonshield
03-17-2006, 09:12 PM
:D :D :D :D :D :D!!!!!

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:14 PM
I know it is hard for you guys to understand without me explaining everything to you, but when there are no signatures shown to guests they can't click out and leave Sitepoint as easy, this means that they are still on Sitepoint to click on Sitepoint ads!

Do you get it now?

moonshield
03-17-2006, 09:19 PM
http://www.psychforums.com/viewforum.php?f=140&sid=e127ec710876e094ec1758b043271c72

I hear that forum is just aching for a boycott.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:20 PM
Maybe you should take some of these Sitepoint zombies over there so the good Doctor can look at them! :argue: :cold: :idea:

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 09:22 PM
He's gonna blow!

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:22 PM
I know it is hard for you guys to understand without me explaining everything to you, but when there are no signatures shown to guests they can't click out and leave Sitepoint as easy, this means that they are still on Sitepoint to click on Sitepoint ads!

Do you get it now?

No. Most people do not enter a forum looking for links to leave. They click on links of interest. If a user has interesting links in his signature I will click them. I am not magnetically drawn to them by some irrational compulsion to leave the website I just entered. This also applies to advertising. If the link is interesting I will click it. Decreasing or increasing the number of exit links have no relation to me clicking on them.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:24 PM
Yeah OK man, Sitepoint could slap your mother in the face and you would still defend them...... :eek2:

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:28 PM
Yeah OK man, Sitepoint could slap your mother in the face and you would still defend them...... :eek2:

This has nothing to do with Sitepoint. Can you not grasp that? It has to do with logical arguements on policies which can apply to any kind of forum. Unless your FPU just condemns, and does not seek to improve the community by educating future forum owners.

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 09:29 PM
FPU = frenetic, ranting, child. Stop feeding him.

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:31 PM
FPU = frenetic, ranting, child. Stop feeding him.

I will be paitent and rise to the debate, even if he will not.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:31 PM
This has nothing to do with Sitepoint. Can you not grasp that? It has to do with logical arguements on policies which can apply to any kind of forum. Unless your FPU just condemns, and does not seek to improve the community by educating future forum owners.


Who in the hell do you think has educated the entire worldwide forum circuit on this issue man?

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 09:33 PM
FPU is a worldwide educator. He should get a nobel prize. Yea, the whole 'circuit' thanks you!

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:33 PM
I will be paitent and rise to the debate, even if he will not.


What debate?

You have no debate, Sitepoint is wrong, the entire community knows this, your side has lost, Sitepoint will put signatures back up or lose 90% of their members, there is no debate man!

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 09:35 PM
Oh my god! It's true! Sitepoint is crumbling! Soon they will look like FPU's forum!

(ok, now I'm having fun again!)

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:37 PM
We will be bigger than Sitepoint one day, bet your *** on it too!

The forum is a month old, I am having fun too man, love you, crazy bloke you! :ladysman: :argue:

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:39 PM
Who in the hell do you think has educated the entire worldwide forum circuit on this issue man?

If by educating you mean point a finger and saying "this bad!". Then your doing a bang up job.


What debate?

You have no debate, Sitepoint is wrong, the entire community knows this, your side has lost, Sitepoint will put signatures back up or lose 90% of their members, there is no debate man!

There is a debate. Mabye you don't know how a debate works. You present your case I argue against, then you argue against my points. You still have not done that. In fact everytime I make an arguement instead of rebuting it you make a personal attack or you self proclaim yourself to be right.

Ball's in your court.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:42 PM
What points have you made, please explain "your debate" and it's positions ??


:eek2:

The New Guy
03-17-2006, 09:53 PM
Read over my posts.

Anyway, I going out now. Catch up with you later.

FPU
03-17-2006, 09:54 PM
Have fun man, you are the one that needs to go back and read the threads, not me, I understand the issues, you don't!

Have a good night! :as-sleep:

Sagewing
03-17-2006, 11:06 PM
Listen to FPU. His empty forum has all the info. Wise man, he.