Who Says AWS is Dead?

[Chris]

Oh wait... I know who.....

I made a new AWS site focusing on TVs at the beginning of July. It must have just gotten indexed fully as in the past 4 days I've sold two high end TVs with commissions nearly $300 total.

Will this inspire someone to copy me? Perhaps, there are some people who seem to copy everything I do.... but thousands of people have already tried AWS with limited success.

[Mike]

I wouldn't say its dead, but I can't say it's something that I am going to be bothering about. Even though it doesn't take long to make an AWS site, I'd rather put that time towards making a site for the long term...

[MarkB]

My AWS gourmet site has made a number of sales in the past week. Maybe the SE's are loving AWS again?;) Who knows? Not I...

[MarkB]

(I should state that the gourmet site was dead re: sales for over a month, so my post actually makes sense)

[r2d2]

Will this inspire someone to copy me? Perhaps, there are some people who seem to copy everything I do....

Perhaps, but my Plasma TV AWS sites have been up for over a year now :)

And yes, $100+ commission per TV is very nice :) Its very annoying though how the percentage of ordered TVs that I dont get commission for seems a lot higher than cheap stuff that doesnt end up with commission... Maybe I just dont notice the cheap stuff...

What kind of traffic levels are you getting to the site?

[Chris]

I don't know, its within my system of 80 datafeed sites and I don't monitor them individually. I can, urchin is setup on the server, but I just don't bother as it's time consuming.

[r2d2]

It must be more than me I guess, I probably sell maybe 1 $100+ commission TV per month on average. And I pay for some of my traffic too :)

[Chris]

I just pulled up my Urchin stats.

about 200 visitors per day, mostly (70%) from Google. Mostly search terms that are product model numbers like "42pf9630a"

the site is http://www.4discounttvs.com bytheway.

[moonshield]

I wonder why it does so well... do you download the amazon data into a database? The site is quite snappy.

[AndyH]

I don't care much for my AWS sites. They make something like $150 from AdSense and probably the same from Amazon. Pays for one weeks rent, I guess...

[Doug]

I have actually been thinking about making an AWS site down the line. I have an idea after I get the investing one off the ground but the AWS site was next in line after that idea. But all of the people saying they were no good anymore left me in question, but this post has renewed my confidence.

[Todd W]

I have actually been thinking about making an AWS site down the line. I have an idea after I get the investing one off the ground but the AWS site was next in line after that idea. But all of the people saying they were no good anymore left me in question, but this post has renewed my confidence.

The days of simply slapping an AWS site up and making good money are over but you can still make money if you provide nice backlinks to your AWS site. Chris has a nice shopping network which really helps boost his AWS sites, and unless you have the same or can do similiar linking strategies don't get your hopes up on making a bunch.
(Yes we know Chris simply slaps his up in day or half days time but he has done backend work to make this possible, and also has a network of sites ready to link to his new site(s).)

Best of luck Doug.

[Doug]

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't plan on getting rich off them. But every little bit of profit helps.

[r2d2]

..about 200 visitors per day, mostly (70%) from Google. Mostly search terms that are product model numbers like "42pf9630a"


I have been getting about 75 uniques per day all year. And yes, most search terms are model numbers, but my top ten terms are stuff like

discount plasma tv 89 6.1 %
cheap plasma tv 60 4.1 %
discount tv 56 3.8 %
plasma screens 41 2.8 %
discount plasma 30 2 %
plasma tv 29 1.9 %
cheap plasma screens 21 1.4 %
plasma tv discount 21 1.4 %
discount plasma tvs 20 1.3 %
cheap plasma tvs

And as Andy says, I think it probably makes as much off Adsense as AWS.

[Chris]

(Yes we know Chris simply slaps his up in day or half days time but he has done backend work to make this possible, and also has a network of sites ready to link to his new site(s).)



15 minutes or less. Depending on how long I work on the header image.

[chrispian]

AWS just doesn't work anymore. Chris is lying. Don't waste your time. I'll keep making them so you don't have to. It's a terrible job, but I'll take the hit for the team. Be thankful, I've come to save you all. ;)

[Snowballer]

where's that guy nintendo? he'll get a kick out of this thread! ahhaha

[MarkB]

Phew, thanks chrispian! :D

[vatsia]

15 minutes or less. Depending on how long I work on the header image.


Why don't you have not more than 80 datafeeds sites ? Why not building one site a day?

[Snowballer]

i remember chris saying that he had enough with new sites, too hard to manage or something.

[Generalissimo]

Will this inspire someone to copy me? Perhaps, there are some people who seem to copy everything I do....


Is this a reference to me? If it isn't then it should be... Here is a list of domains I own or owned:

dell-coupons.info
classicliterature.net
survival-guide.info
art-history.info
supremeshopping.com

I rest my case.

[Chris]

Why don't you have not more than 80 datafeeds sites ? Why not building one site a day?
There aren't that many good feeds.

[Chris]

Is this a reference to me? If it isn't then it should be... Here is a list of domains I own or owned:

dell-coupons.info
classicliterature.net
survival-guide.info
art-history.info
supremeshopping.com

I rest my case.
Don't worry, your unoriginality is not news to anyone here.

[Generalissimo]

In this business it's hard to be original unless google brings out a new product...

[lz83ny]

To be honest, Chris's site looks very unprofessional, I wouldn't buy a pen from you. I don't know how you make so much, gota be lucky, but that's no reason to criticize others.

[Chris]

In this business it's hard to be original unless google brings out a new product...
Most people manage to be original in some way or another. Taking inspiration from someone is okay, copying everything someone does is lame.

Honestly, your literature site is so similar to mine in general layout and navigation that I fear duplicate content penalties or myself being mistaken as the owner of it. Especially considering your author list is almost exactly the same as what mine was back in the Spring before I did my large update. In short, its blatant.

Its not that I'm afraid of competition, there are hundreds of ebook archives out there. I just don't like clones. ReadPrint.com basically did the same thing, copied my archive and most of my layouts. I got them shut down for a couple weeks though as they also copied copyrighted biographies and summaries.

I think I should update my design and put something like "Often copied, never duplicated."

[Generalissimo]

My design is really nothing like your design. I have quite a few works you don't have. Look in my George Orwell sectionf or instance. I've been planning on making a ebook site since I started on the web back in 2000, before I knew of you or your site. Yes, I might have taken a lot of inspiration from your site, but I'd have built an e book site eventually anyway. Plus my script has a feature you'res doesn't - audio books, I just haven't added any yet.

[Kyle]

Granted, there aren't many ways of doing the literature site. But Sean has copied every idea Chris has practically.. Want a list? Ok here's the list.

Analyze the George Orwell page for each site.

Sean http://www.classicliterature.net/george-orwell
Chris http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/

Note the following:

1) The wording in the HEADER NAVIGATION. Compare.
2) The left navigation for George Orwell.
3) The comment system
4) Color scheme, the same.

Sean has taken Chris's idea, uses all of his ideas even identical wording in many places, and made it look nicer and easier on the eyes.

I will repeat myself, there aren't many ways you can word the header navigation
So here are the extremely IMPORTANT things to note in this case.

I have learned so much from Chris over the years, and have shared this website with so many associates. It is the only webmaster forum I actively participate in. I am loyal to his teachings, and have been for many years now (time goes by fast :().

So here are the exact duplicate things I find very offensive.

1) The decision Sean made to make Shakespeare a global link in the header navigation.
2) The color scheme.
3) The most serious offense of all... The decision to remove the left navigation which lists the authors work when viewing a specific story/poem.

Sean, we have talked many times, and the reason this is so offensive is that you are young and arrogant. The reason I'm even posting and getting involved with this is because your arrogance is bothersome given your age. You need to learn more and not make statements like "my design is really nothing like your design".

Please don't be so arrogant. You are brilliant and have a great future.

[phazex]

I have actually been thinking about making an AWS site down the line. I have an idea after I get the investing one off the ground but the AWS site was next in line after that idea. But all of the people saying they were no good anymore left me in question, but this post has renewed my confidence.


I have my own aws network as well http://www.dshoppingnetwork.com. My expenses are kept to a bare miminum (less than 100$ a month), and I also make over 1500$ a month from adsense and aws combined. Think it's time consuming? No... It takes 30 minutes at the most to get each new site up.

I wouldn't recommend this method (mass aws sites), but I'd simply stick with one niche site and focus on gradually improving it. Improvements include backlinks, professional design, and adding features that don't make it appear to be one of the other one million aws sites offering the same products.

PS. Future plans include getting more backlinks to my hub site.

[Chris]

I've actually never copied someone, nor made a site based on someone else's success on the topic.

My literature site started as a shakespeare fan site which I then expanded as I realized I could get more traffic with more authors. I wasn't the first text archive, there were a few back then, and I did not copy their layouts or navigation. Nor did I even decide to make my site because of them. Actually when I started I was entirely unique with a different site and different design for each author (which I did for about 20 authors/books and then gave up and decided it was too much work).

My survival site was made because I was in Army ROTC and was taking the class that uses the book the site is based on as a textbook. I saw in the front of the book that it was public domain and thought "hmm, I could make a website."

My mythology and artist sites grew out of my literature site. They're both based off a book that I thought could make it as a standalone site.

My fitness and orienteering sites were extensions of my survival site. When it hit it's traffic ceiling I looked to other Army manuals to expand it.

My coupon site was very indirect. I had "Buy the book on Amazon" links on my literature site but they performed poorly. Back then Amazon regularly emailed out coupons like $5 off $30 (something they don't do anymore) and I thought if my visitors knew about the coupons they'd be more apt to buy. So I made a page on my literature site for Amazon coupons, it took off in popularity, got ranked 2nd on Google before I even thought it would be a good field to pursue. I got my first coupon domain, something like Amazon-Coupons.com, which I later had to "Sell" to amazon cause of trademark issues. So then I made coupon-code and added new merchants. Again, not the first coupon site, but I didn't base mine on anyone elses. I later thought to add articles, especially since I was always giving verbal buying guides to family and friends. So I bought savvyshopping.net (years ago mind you) and stuck some articles on it and promoted it with my coupon site (then just recently I relaunched it with more articles).

Other sites like this one or my sword site grew out of my own interests.

The closest thing to copying someone else might be my AWS sites, and thats only because I am not using an original script. Still, when I started I made shops for Amazon beta stores, something no one else (or hardly anyone else) was doing due to the inconsistent feeds.

I'd love to hear how Sean's personal interests drove him to register domains for sites nearly identical to mine.... but we know he is just a great imitator.

As for his literature site.... let me count the similarities.

1. bolding the author last name in author lists-- only my site and sites that have ripped me off do that.
2. the colors
3. the author page layout is exactly the same. Left column is picture above works list. Right column has breadcrumb navigation, then a search box (with the exact same wording as my site) then a biography, then a space for user comments, then a searchfeed link. Exactly as my site except for the new quiz heading I just added this summer.
4. Ditto with the book pages
5. use of a main site horizontal menu, again something fairly unique to my site. The menu items are nearly identical. Nearly every other site out there uses the word "Author's" to link to their author list. My site uses "Author Index" always has. So does Seans (and readprint.com). Sean also put in "Religious Texts" instead of "The Bible" but on some of his pages, such as his author index, he still lists Bible instead -- just as I do.
6. His comment formatting, on his orwell page you can see it, is exactly as I used to do it (exactly) before I (just this summer) switched to a full forum integration for my comments. I use the same script on IDDB.org which uses the old format for comparison. Its not even a common format, its pretty unique if I do say so myself.
7. The multiline formatting of the author list on the homepage and on the author index. He has 3 lines on his author index and 2 lines on the homepage, I'm the opposite, but they go horizontally across and then down. Most places go down one row then down the next (or just have one row). The only literature sites I've seen do it this way are mine, and sites that copied me.
8. The the sheer similiarity of our libraries. My library from the spring was probably about 90% identical to Seans. I've since added a few hundred books.

Usually, at most, two literature sites might have 50% of works in common. Sure, everyone has Shakespeare and Dickens, but when you get into the more obscure authors you end up with alot more variety. So the copiers are easy to spot.

Now, he can copy the works, they're public domain, but to copy everything else.... its lame.

This one site copied my survival site, which is okay since its public domain, but they also were trying to promote the book on amazon and they copied the exact same text and formatting (which was originally written by me) to promote the book, and at first they even left in my affiliate link (ha!). That was also lame.

I'm not afraid of competition, I'm well entrenched, Yahoo is now reporting 200,000 backlinks, traffic is sky high, and I have a very fast growing community (now at 500-1000 new members a month). It'll be a long hard road for anyone who wants to get up to the level where I'm at and quite frankly I think their time would be better spent in a more lucrative subject matter. If I didn't already have the site there is no way I would choose to start it knowing everything I know now. Still, copying it is lame, and copying more than one of my sites or ideas is exponentially lame.

Its okay to be inspired, I post things like my experiences with Yahoo's Directory not so someone makes a nearly identical article and submits it too, but so rather someone can better decide to submit their own original article or site. Its even okay to make a site on a competing topic. Icebane sort of competes with me (although our sites are both quite old, we both had them before we knew each other), and thats fine, we have a link exchange.

The point is, if you're going to copy, put your own unique spin on things.

But blatant copies are just lame, especially when the owner brags about them as Sean has done in the past.

[lz83ny]

I see your point, why don't you have him change the layout? so it doesn't look like yours any more.

[James]

My design is really nothing like your design.Oh, so who'd you steal this one off of, then?


you are young and arrogantWow, understate it enough?


Please don't be so arrogant. You are brilliant and have a great future.Oxymoronic sentence, there.


and at first they even left in my affiliate linkHeh :D


But blatant copies are just lame, especially when the owner brags about them as Sean has done in the past.Not to mention denying that they are blatant copies.

[Kyle]

Wow, understate it enough?

I am old and lazy.

[Kyle]

I should have said inexperienced and arrogant. That's what I really meant.

[The New Guy]

Wow, understate it enough?

Well, first it was two sentences and second brilliance does not contradict arrogance, so, it is not an oxymoron. :p

[James]

Well, I originally said 'the sentence equivalent of an oxymoron' but figured 'oxymoronic sentence' meant basically the same thing.
And I meant in regards to him being like "you're arrogant" and in the sentence right beside it, calling him brilliant and telling him he has a great future--things that could boost the ego.

[mini]

Could this be the new virtual stalker or copy cat? very veyr spooky!

[James]

Actually, I t:D:Dhink Jesse's stalking me. It seems every forum I go to, he follows me there!! :D:D::D:D:D

[Generalissimo]

Perhaps if you look into it you'd find that:

A: I didn't make the design, I had it made on design outpost, they made that layout.
B: Those buttons at the top were the design out posts people making buttons, you'll notice that some of them don't work - The site isn't finished yet.
C: The site isn't launched yet, I'm having people add public domain books for me, some of them tend to just use literature.org and online-literature.com though, while a few use others, such as marxists.org and gutenburg.
D: The coder made the comment box feature. I said I wanted people to be able to leave comments with their name, a subject field and let people rate the comments. The coder who happens to be on this forum obviously looked at Chris' site for inspiration about how to set it out.

By the time the site is launched hopefully over 50% of the works will be different, I've actually bought one book I couldn't find online to OCR which I feel needs to be in my library. Also the menu at the top will change. Author Index will be called E-Books. The bible link thing will be Religious Works. The shakespeare link will be removed. And there will be a few more links to extra features I'm planning for the site that Chris doesn't have on his. Also the homepage won't have the list of books on it, it will just have a few and will be more like a ezine than a list of books.


As for the survival domain, I bought that to sell on when the .infos were free, I never planned to make a site and I still don't plan to. I probably won't make a coupon site, supremeshopping is a consumer info site, which although Chris did have a stie with about 5 articles on, it wasn't a consumer info site, this site was never intended to be like Chris', and since I built it Chris has actually made a site for consumer info himself. I'm not planning on doing anything with that art-history domain, I own about 50 history related domains which I bought when loads suddenly expired. I also own wariniraq.net, world-war-2.net, queen-elizabeth.net for instance. I also have quite a lot of sites very different from Chris'. I made my first online games site in 2000, when there were not many (if any, I can't remember) archives of online games by different authors. I'm currently working on an ad network, name anyone who posts regularly in this forum that owns an ad network... I am making a music video site, lz83ny might think I am copying him, but I'm sure a few people here can remember I've owned a domain for this and being talking about doing so since late 2003, it's only in last few months I've really started getting videos though... I have a number of other projects going on which as far as I know won't compete with any of the regulars to this forum.

[Chris]

http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6256&highlight=literature

You only mention my site 6 times in your design request on design outpost, in case you go back and edit it I've copied and pasted it here:



(Admin code added by Palmer - 19777520)

Company name: Classic Literature
Company profile: To be most popular & most useful literature site and to have most literature works
Domain name: www.classicliterature.net - May change, don't include domain in design
What is the scope of this project?: New site
Who is the intended audience?: Most will be college students, english speaking countries
Mood or tone?: Library like, easy on the eye.
Color psychology?: Either like the colors of online-literature.com, bartleby.com or a design me and a friend made a year ago which can be seen at http://www.classicliterature.net/authors/george-orwell (not menu doesn't work in firefox )
Any dynamic elements?: No, just the design.
Who are your main competitors?:

http://www.online-literature.com (my favourite competitor and design, probably most popular one)
http://www.literature.org(ugly site, but very popular)
http://www.bartleby.com (I like the colors, but not the design, and it's too thin).
http://www.bibliomania.com/(awfully designed site, but popular)
http://www.literaturepage.com/ (design is too simple, but its popular)

Other:

No logo - You just put the text 'Classic Literature' in the header bit.
I want a menu bar like in online-literature.com and my example I made with a friend. The text on this should be text, not images.
I want to use CSS if possible.
You are designing not the homepage, but an author page, like my example or an author page on online-literature.com. I want a left menu with the authors picture, then a text menu categories like the example below. In the main section I want a text heading then some lorem ipsum below to represent the biography. I also want a 300x250 ad like on online-literature.com.
Font - Don't use Arial or Times New Roman for the text. Use the font that is easiest to read, whichever you think this might be. I like Tahoma, but it's up to you. For the title Arial Narrow is quite good, but I bet you can find better. Make sure fonts are standard fonts. For the image header use whichever font looks best, preferablly somethng that looks booky.
I'm not sure if this would work, but a dark wooden background for the header image might be good if you are going for a colour scheme similar to online-literature.com
Online-literature.com contains a set of books in it's header. I think this looks good, you might want to include an object like that if you think it fits your design.
You must make it easy for me to make a chapter/homepage thing from your work, (get rid of the author side menu).
EDIT: I'll also add that the image of the author should be 150 pixels wide and the author side menu only slightly bigger (so there is a border).
EDIT: There will also need to be a small bottom menu, like on the example.

Deadline: 1st February 2005, but I might extend if there is need to.

I'm wanting psd and html.

Good luck, I'm looking forward to seeing some very good designs and making some friends along the way.

Sean Spurr,
Managing Director,
Incka Limited.

So when you were 11 you made your first games site and you had plans for a literature site just like mine? Truly fascinating. What was the URL of your games site?

[MarkB]

Very interesting thread.

I think Sean is a good example of people copying what Chris has done because of his success; although Sean has branched out recently, he still obviously either worships Chris and basically wants to emulate him, or has no qualms about ripping* people off.

(*harsh I know, its for want of another word)

The sites I tend to stick with are those suited to my main interest: music. I have a number of AWS/datafeed sites, and also a blog network in the works. I don't think anyone else here has that. (yay me)

[Generalissimo]

I think one of the original sites I made is still up, http://www.edenvallysean.supanet.com I think... Games2go.co.uk used to redirect to it before I built a real site.

I don't have any problems copying people, I'm sure a few people have copied ideas for my sites, it's a free market economy, while I don't like that personally I'm not gonna have any second thoughs about acting as I must in it.

I did mention your site a lot, but then if you look at things, I mentioned a few others in colour scheme - it's the design that chose to do it like yours, one of the time I mentioned yours was just to say I wanted a advert - nothing strange there...

[Generalissimo]

There is a slight bit of evidence that I wanted to do an ebook site from a VERY early personal site I made here: http://www.edenvally.supanet.com/...

I also found an even older version of my games site: http://web.archive.org/web/20010305141152/http://edenvallysean.supanet.com/
and another old version: http://web.archive.org/web/20011025172153/http://games2go.co.uk/

[Chris]

I did mention your site a lot, but then if you look at things, I mentioned a few others in colour scheme - it's the design that chose to do it like yours, one of the time I mentioned yours was just to say I wanted a advert - nothing strange there...


You asked for a copy, they delivered.

[Generalissimo]

I never asked for a copy.

[James]

Okay, you asked for a replica.

[Generalissimo]

I didn't ask for a replica either, and I didn't get a replica either, although admittedly it is closer to the design of Chris' site than I would have liked.

[Chris]

You're lame, unoriginal, and arrogant, with what seems to be a really bad case of denial. Its obvious to everyone else how unoriginal you are but you just can't admit it.

Wtih your attitude I don't see why I should help your ill conceived websites by allowing you to promote them on my sites. You've just lost your right to a signature on my forums. No more free PageRank for you.

[Generalissimo]

I seem to also have been given access to a staff forum and had PM rights removed at the same time... Wouldn't it be better to make it so they use through-links rather than remove the signiture...

[MarkB]

Ooh, WSP has a staff forum? Do you talk to yourself there, Chris?:)

[Generalissimo]

It has only been used for testing vb features.

[Generalissimo]

Looks like Chris has changed my title, ha ha, you do have a sense of humor...

[Generalissimo]

Well it's obvious this is a move by Chris to try to get me to quit the site so I'm not going to do.

[Generalissimo]

You've obviously given me access to the staff forum in an attempt to get me to do something that will give you a reason that the members of the forum will see as justifiable to ban me.

[Chris]

Actually its just when I setup a new usergroup for Imitation Publishers I forgot to disallow access to those areas and so by default you had access.

If I wanted to ban you I would, and I doubt any other forum members would be upset by it. I'll allow you to continue to use the forum, you just aren't going to feed any of my PageRank to your sites through your signature.

[Generalissimo]

PR doesn't mean anything to me. My signiture is there to let people see my sites as a reference to what I talk about in my posts.

[Generalissimo]

Chris: You should put yourself in that group too, you make a jewelry affiliate store after I had made one.

[Chris]

Then you won't be disappointed by your new status.

[Chris]

It takes me 15 minutes to make a new datafeed site. If I was going to copy you I would have made one immediately after you made yours.

Really, I hope to cover the entirety of Amazon eventually, so making a jewelry site was inevitable. And for linkshare merchants, well I'm making a datafeed site for every linkshare merchant with a usable feed and some of them happen to be jewelry merchants. So don't flatter yourself ;)

[Generalissimo]

So are other people going to be put in this category?

Mike made a msn emotions site after Jaffro, I made one after Mike, and moonshield made one after me. Are mike and moonshield going to join me for instance?

[wrigh_g]

Chris what are you 30? picking on a kid who is what 15? thats just not right... So what if he copies stuff, hes 15. On a side note lets look at the IT industry as a whole. Apple copyed some of Microsoft Ideas from Windows Vista, and released them before microsoft. Apple brought out the IPOD, suddenly loads of companies bring out an IPOD simular music player.

Leave sean alone, and as for the PageRank thing why are you picking sean out, most of the other memebers do the same thing. Also, so what if he uses your ideas? its called competition. Competition is good, its makes things better, plus you should be happy that he looks up to you.

If you flame me your just childish people.

[Generalissimo]

Lol, great microsoft comparison, reminds me of the movie 'Pirates of Silicon Valley'

[Generalissimo]

Chris, unless you are going to be hegemonic you must stick to the principals of universiality, and therefore add all publishers who have ever made a site similar enough to what I did to this category.

[wrigh_g]

Quick Note: How in the world are people posting a few mins in the future????

[Kyle]

Sean, it would be so much more acceptable if you were to be humble and admit to a few things.. just a few! The fact that you deny most of the things with regards to the literature sites is very disheartening for me.

Maybe a thank you? or "Yes when I was first starting out I was going to copy a lot of your public domain ideas, but now I've only done the literature site."

Chris has made some great points. The literature site for example. He's right, if you put your time towards something else it would be much so much more productive. The mirrored literature sites business is done. I guess unless you owned a .com and advertised it on the History Channel and A&E, then maybe you could branch off and be successful. But I don't get that feeling from you that that's happening in the near future.

In the end, it is obvious you were going to copy many ideas from Chris including the survival site. As time went on, this may have changed. Your denial is what makes this so dramatic and even makes my blood pressure rise.

[Kyle]

When re-reading the thread again, it bothers me more than as issues were "beaten" out of Sean, he then started to admit to things. Like the design resembling Chris. Especially the post from DesignOutpost.

[Generalissimo]

Yes, I had planned to make millions of websites including a lot of ones that would compete with Chris', I had the idea of being like Rupert Murdoch of the web, who would have a site in every consievable market. When the .infos were free I bought a lot of them from a large range of topics, some were in the same market as Chris', most were not, I don't think I've actually made a single one of these .infos into a site. Yes, my literature site does have a lot of similarities to Chris', but so do a lot of literature sites and that is the best way of doing it, I'm not going to make something in a worse style or layout just because I post of a forum with someone of a style that isn't a world away.

[Chris]

There is nothing wrong with being inspired by someone, but to copy a site to the extent that it looks like the work of the same designer using the same backend, that isn't inspiration thats imitation.



Chris what are you 30? picking on a kid who is what 15? thats just not right... So what if he copies stuff, hes 15.


Age is no excuse for his arrogance and his disrespect for the work of others. And if you think this is about competition you obviously haven't read the whole thread.

Honestly if you don't like how I run things here, there are other forums you can visit. I'm trying to build a community for mature adult website publishers who do not rip each other off and then arrogantly brag about how their's is unique and or better.

[Kyle]

In my opinion (and I don't mean to speak for Chris), if your denial and arrogance wasn't so strong at first, and you were a little more honest and a little less defensive, Chris would have handled the situation differently.

[Generalissimo]

When re-reading the thread again, it bothers me more than as issues were "beaten" out of Sean, he then started to admit to things. Like the design resembling Chris. Especially the post from DesignOutpost.


When re-reading threads you often get a different view on things, I do it sometimes. Let's just leave this thread at this: Me and Chris obviously are not friendly towards each other. We both have literature sites, Chris has a had a literature site longer, I took a lot of inspiration and ideas from it as did freelancers working for me, I plan to make my literature site a lot different than Chris' by adding a lot of works he doesn't have and a few features he doesn't have. Chris has removed my PM rights. This could be an accident or it could be a way of trying to make me loose business that I may do via PM, only he knows.

[Kyle]

Chris what are you 30? picking on a kid who is what 15?

He doesn't act like a 15 year old. And obviously his parents forgot to teach him some morales here.... so this situation is important for Sean.

[Generalissimo]

In my opinion (and I don't mean to speak for Chris), if your denial and arrogance wasn't so strong at first, and you were a little more honest and a little less defensive, Chris would have handled the situation differently.


I expect that you are correct here. I am obviously too interested in politics and spend too much time watching westminster and problems like Yes, Minister, and therefore have started acting like politicians. My appologies for my arrogance and part-truths.

[Generalissimo]

He doesn't act like a 15 year old. And obviously his parents forgot to teach him some morales here.... so this situation is important for Sean.

I have morals in some aspects of life, but not in others. I feel business is an immoral zone, that is one reason why my political views are so far left wing, because in business you must be immoral (even if you paint a facade of being moral). In other aspects of life I am very moral. I donate a lot of money to charity, I am a Vegan, I am non-violent, etc.

[Kyle]

You don't have to be immoral, especially in the field we're in....I'm sorry those are your views.

[Generalissimo]

Have you ever read the book called 'The Corporation'. Legally companies have one purpose which overrides everything else - To make the highest profit for their shareholders as possible. So in effect being moral at the cost of potential earnings would be illegal.

[Kyle]

I'll be sure to not let my shareholders down!

(hears crickets chirping in his 1 bedroom apartment)

[Generalissimo]

Ha ha, your an LLC aren't you, I don't think LLCs have shareholders do they, I think they are 1 person ownerships. I know what you're saying, companies have sole owners and therefore should do what the owner wants, I'm just saying what the laws say that there purpose is to make the greatest profit for shareholders, not to be agents of the owners bidding.

[Kyle]

I'm incorporated. Technically we have shareholders. But give me a break.

[Chris]

To make the highest profit for their shareholders as possible. So in effect being moral at the cost of potential earnings would be illegal.



I'm just saying what the laws say that there purpose is to make the greatest profit for shareholders, not to be agents of the owners bidding.


Maybe the Laws according to Sean.

Thats a gross misstatement if I've ever seen one. Corporations are constantly being held accountable for immoral actions they committed in the pursuit of more profits. Furthermore there is absolutely nothing illegal about not pursuing profits to their fullest. If that is what the majority shareholders want then you could lose your job, but it certainly isn't illegal.

Do you honestly think an excuse like "I was just trying to get more profits." would hold up in any court? You'd be crucified by a Jury if you said that.

Also, FYI, an LLC can issue shares for up to 20 members (owners/shareholders).

[Generalissimo]

Sounds like the equivalent of a partnership in the uk, where there can be upto 20 partners, only difference is an LLC has limited liability while a partnership does not.

I admit fully that I have been arrogant and denied things in this thread that I shouldn't and I realise that these have led to a lot of anger.

But to say that corporations are often held accountable isn't considering a lot of things, I'll bring up one example, General Motors made around 80,000 people redundant and moved their jobs to Mexico where it pays about 20% of the former wages, I can't remember anyone bringing a court case against them (or maybe they did, I just don't remember it). The only thing that happend was a lot of negative press in the left wing sections of the press.

[Chris]

And Pacific Gas & Electric allowed Chromium 6 to get into local water supplies and was successfully sued for over 300 million. Lately many big name CEOs have gone to prison for cooking the books. Microsoft was fined exactly how much by the EU? All these companies did immoral things, the profit excuse didn't seem to work for them.

[Generalissimo]

Ah, but they broke the law...

[Kyle]

Sean your initial point was that you don't have morals when it comes to business. Is this why, to emulate them? This is what business is to you?

[John]

It could be argued that you did too when you stole chris's ideas.

[Generalissimo]

To me companies are legally structures to make a profit. They will try not to brake the law as there are fines for doing so which will damage profits, but really they are pathological in their pursuit of profit because of their legal structure. I don't like it, I don't think many people other than Milton Friedman do. Businesses are immoral unless it is in the interest of profit to be moral (For instance Pfizer do a lot of sponsoring, but by doing so people trust them and buy their products).

[Generalissimo]

It could be argued that you did too when you stole chris's ideas.

Chris does not have a patent on his site, I have not breached any trademarks, I have not stolen any of his original text graphics coding or other intellectual property. Hard to claim I've acted illegally.

[Generalissimo]

I've just remember a legal case that shows that companies are only allowed to do one thing. It's from the early 20th century, the company involved was Ford which decided to spend it's profits on improving conditions for it's workers I think. One of the shareholders sued and won on the arguement that the law requires the company to make the money for it's share holders rather than being philianthoric. The name of the suer was Dodge, and he used the damages he recieved to set up his own car manufacteur...

[jonnyhilfiger]

To me companies are legally structures to make a profit. They will try not to brake the law as there are fines for doing so which will damage profits, but really they are pathological in their pursuit of profit because of their legal structure. I don't like it, I don't think many people other than Milton Friedman do. Businesses are immoral unless it is in the interest of profit to be moral (For instance Pfizer do a lot of sponsoring, but by doing so people trust them and buy their products).

What a load of hogwash. I think you've been reading the wrong books.

So by starting a Ltd company I am by definition immoral unless i choose a moral path.

There's no legal obligation to make a profit for a Ltd company, a limited company is privately owned, what the directors of that company do with the money or lack of it is entirely up to them. They have a legal obligation to submit company returns, accounts and other admin duties, thats all.

PLC's on the other hand may be treated differently but I don't ever recall a case of someone getting a criminal conviction as a direct result of not making a profit.

Looks like this thread is now on it's 3rd tangent.

John

[MarkB]

See, this is why I haven't started my Ltd company. As soon as I do, I just know i'll begin stealing ideas, lying, cheating, kicking old ladies on the bus, and pour arsenic into school water fountains. I don't WANT to, but hey.

;)

[Chris]

Chris does not have a patent on his site, I have not breached any trademarks, I have not stolen any of his original text graphics coding or other intellectual property. Hard to claim I've acted illegally.


Only the copyright owner is allowed to make a derivative work, considering how you asked Mike to make parts of your site like mine and how you asked your designers at DO to emulate my site I think its quite possible a jury could decide that you did make a derivative work.

[Emancipator]

See, this is why I haven't started my Ltd company. As soon as I do, I just know i'll begin stealing ideas, lying, cheating, kicking old ladies on the bus, and pour arsenic into school water fountains. I don't WANT to, but hey.

;)


hehe.... (off topic : I dig your blog alot )

[Generalissimo]

No, because derivative would mean taking the thing and editing it. When you do contests on design outpost you mention sites you like, here is one such example

'http://www.templatemonster.com/webs...lates/6201.html' you mentioned in http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5622
'http://www.daytonabreak.com/' and 'http://springbreak.sopadre.com/' in http://www.designoutpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1420

Following your logic, a jury could decide that these are derivative works, but following my logic, it couldn't.

[Cutter]

After this thread hit 6 pages I just had to read it.

Look guys, go out there and do something different than everyone else on the webmaster boards. There are a lot of topics that really could use good sites. If you want a site that completely dominates a market this is your best bet.

My first site I did was a game site. Not exactly a copy of anyone else, but hardly original. It was tons of work. Since then I've learned to go after other niches. I don't run a single AWS site, no free flash game sites, no ringtones, etc. etc.

I've found profitable niches on my own, not by copying any other webmaster's sites.

[Generalissimo]

Free flash games can be very profitable...

[Kyle]

Free flash games can be very profitable...

* icebane salutes captain obvious *



He wasn't sayting they aren't profitable.

[MarkB]

Sean, PLEASE look up the meaning of derivative. It does NOT mean stealing something and editing it. It means being, let's say, "overly influenced". Everyone here who has been a part of WSP for any length of time KNOWS you have based a number of your sites DIRECTLY on what Chris has done previously. The literature site is one obvious example.

You state continuously about how your personal politics are left-leaning, yet your business politics are right-leaning. Why not use your talents towards building a business around original ideas of your interests, instead of attempting to mirror other people's achievements?

[Westech]

http://www.4dictionary.com/dictionary/view.cgi?type=all&word=derivative

(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

[Chris]

No, because derivative would mean taking the thing and editing it. When you do contests on design outpost you mention sites you like, here is one such example

Maybe I should sue you so we can find out? You outlined 6 things you wanted 'like online-literature.com' You told Mike to make many of your features like my site. Your end product looks very similar to my site.

Thats a far far cry from me showing a designer a design style that I like.

Plus you copied navigation as well, which even furthers my point.

Quite frankly, if you were in the US, I might sue you.

[MarkB]

If his server is US-based, then surely you would have a case? At least for 'cease and desist'? </ignorant>

[Chris]

It'd only be worth it if I could get damages, and it'd be really hard to collect any damages I think. I might be able to get some of his domains, and stop him from using US ad networks, but thats not worth alot to me.

[AndyH]

Personally, I have noticed that anything you (Chris) do and talk about how well it is doing Sean will go ahead and try to do the same.

It will always be a catchup game. He is pretty much wasting his time.

[James]

...I have noticed...
As have I.

Sean: being immoral won't bring you success. Not being a ****ing idiot is all it takes to become rich and successful. Look at Google: they've kept a positive image, and haven't done anything that I know of that's immoral. You can certainly make money without doing anything immoral.

Hell, I don't think that Chris has killed puppies in front of children to bring him the success his sites enjoy, nor has he hijacked an ice cream truck and spent day after day getting children to follow it; slowing down for the kids, then speeding up just before they reach the window, etc., nor has he robbed an orphanage. Golly, I don't think I can recall a single thing that Chris has done that's immoral that has brought his sites success--nor will success be brought to companies like the one that moved 80,000 workers to Mexico, etc. because of their actions: there's no such thing as a real force of karma, but there sure as hell is a habit of the universe to make whatever goes around come back around; if you want whatever's going around to be a steel-toed boot, aimed at your arse, then that's your choice.

While you may like to keep your perfect little ego in its pristine condition, and push the blame for your actions on the fact that you've got some fallacious legal requirement, we see through your ****--and some day you'll be forced to see through it, and we can all only hope that that's not at the same time or after it hits the fan.

PS ewww @ Vegan.

[Chris]

nor will success be brought to companies like the one that moved 80,000 workers to Mexico,


I just gotta say that to Mexican workers thats a good thing, to fat unions its a bad thing. Its not universally bad. I live in the hometown of the company in question and they're really not so bad.

[aj8]

Interesting thread so far. I consider myself an impartial observer (I do not know Chris, and I do not know Sean).

Sean,

I have run a UK Limited company for over five years now, since I was not a lot older than you. I worry that your fairly 'black and white' political opinions might actually inhibit, or at least diminish your ability to do well in business. You cannot straightforwardly say (in effect) "Businesses are there only to make profit. Therefore they have no morals.".

I do not think you are giving credit to the people behind most businesses. Your own political views appear to be left wing, and yet you say that because in the domain of business morality is unimportant you do not feel that you need behave morally with your business hat on. (I have paraphrased).

I am not sure whether or not you have behaved improperly by producing websites that are similar to Chris'. Only you and Chris will have valid opinions on that. Morality is very much in the eye of the beholders. The fact that you have upset Chris should be enough to make you question your actions. I would have thought that if anybody considers what you've done to be immoral, then from a business perspective you should be concerned about that. After all, look what has happened to your status on this forum.

In short, behaving morally in business usually costs nothing, and *eventually* gives you the best return in the end. YES in effect I am saying that it is more profitable to act honestly and morally, but as you yourself have pointed out, businesses are there to be profitable.

Surely it's more important that everyone acts morally, rather than worry about WHY they are acting morally?

Alex.

PS. My own political persusasions are left on some issues, and right on others. I regard myself as a very honest person, and this has (demonstrably) been the best path to take over the years.

[mini]

Sean/incka, the more you get into trouble, the more you'll learn.

You're obviously cocky and very very arrogant. If you just admit that you copied Chris (whatever words you're using, which I think you're copying), he might forgive you.

I don't think anyone will want to deal with you professionally in business and personally because you don't have a really good work and moral ethic.

Hope you will learn one day since you still have a long way to go in life.

[Nintendo]

where's that guy nintendo? he'll get a kick out of this thread! ahhaha

Can't respond, threads been hijacked. :( It's now The Peoples Court, with no judge... yet! :D

[LeglessTable]

You're lame, unoriginal, and arrogant, with what seems to be a really bad case of denial. Its obvious to everyone else how unoriginal you are but you just can't admit it.

Wtih your attitude I don't see why I should help your ill conceived websites by allowing you to promote them on my sites. You've just lost your right to a signature on my forums. No more free PageRank for you.

Kind of funny how the 30 year old resorts to name calling before the 15 year old. If similar concepts, content, and the execution of both is something that bothers you, you are in the wroooooong field buddy. There is little to nothing original under the sun these days on the 'net, just lots of the same things sliced, diced, and displayed differently on different URL's.

Using this line of thinking, I suppose that you ripped off the WebmasterWorld forum and made a webmaster forum where people can talk back and forth about website related issues. I mean, the site structure is the same: an index page, a forum page, a topic page, and all of them filled with user-submitted words about website building! This place is a rip-off! /sarcasm-off

Regarding "suing you to find out" - in today's litigious society, if someone looks at you the wrong way you can sue them. For goodness sake, someone sued McDonald's and won lots of money because they serve hot coffee and they were dumb enough to pour it on themselves. Suing often times proves nothing in terms of right or wrong. Sadly, so many times it boils down to who can afford the better lawyer and to fight longer. Have fun in litigation protecting your Nintendo-looking designs ;)

[Chris]

I don't know why people don't get that is not about competition its about copying. There are hundreds of competition sites out there that I don't care about because they don't look almost exactly like my site.

Nor do I understand why people think Sean deserves coddling because of his age when he has exhibited such arrogance and often tries to put on a show to act older and more successful.

I also don't understand how someone thinks they can blatantly insult me on my own forums without me banning them.

I wonder if these few defenders are really just friends of Sean. In anycase this thread is long since over, so its being closed.

Although, to go back to the original topic -- my TV aws site is still doing well - I sold over $10k worth of TV or home theatre products this week.

[Westech]

Well, I never thought I’d be one of those drama queens who posts logs of IM conversations on forums, but here I am…

I debated for a while on whether to post this or not, but after re-reading this thread I decided that I should – both to further document Sean’s pattern of behavior, and to get my conversation with him on the public record as soon as possible in case I need to take any kind of action against him once his copied game comes out. I also wanted to let those who were defending him earlier in this thread know that what he did before was not an isolated incident, but that he's continuing in his old ways, and apparently still thinks that there’s nothing wrong with what he’s doing.

So, here’s the story: I just purchased exclusive rights to a game called Busy Burger (http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/Busy-Burger.html) to feature on my site. Within around 30-45 minutes of posting the game on my site, I got an IM from Sean (aka Incka aka Generalissimo aka Managing Director, Incka, Ltd.) basically stating "I had spoken with the author about buying that game too but the author wanted too much money, so I’ve hired someone else to develop a copy of it for cheaper. I did this before I knew that you licensed the game, so that makes it OK. I'll be releasing my copy soon. Just wanted to let you know." (I’m paraphrasing, of course.) Apparently he hired a Flash developer to make a copy of this game in much the same way that he previously asked a web designer for a copy of Chris’s literature site as mentioned earlier in this thread.



Here’s the log of the IM conversation:


Sean Spurr. says:
oh my, you'll never believe this
John West says:
What's that?
Sean Spurr. says:
i've got a guy making a game exactly like busy burger and he's been making it for me for over a monht now
John West says:
So you requested that he make an exact copy of Busy Burger?
Sean Spurr. says:
yes, before you licensed it
Sean Spurr. says:
months ago
Sean Spurr. says:
the guy who made busy burger made splat em
Sean Spurr. says:
but he was asking too much for busy burger
John West says:
That's still not cool. Even if I hadn't licensed it you were asking for a copy of Yanuar's original game.
Sean Spurr. says:
so? theres been games like that for years
John West says:
I thought you knew better than that.
Sean Spurr. says:
its not original
Sean Spurr. says:
and mine isnt an exact copy
John West says:
I certainly hope not.
Sean Spurr. says:
its got lots of different food items and its different
Sean Spurr. says:
but its strange that you licensed it
Sean Spurr. says:
i asked him to license it a few month ago, but he siad something liek $**** and thats far too high
Sean Spurr. says:
so i got aqeel to make one for just $***
John West says:
I would encourage you to make sure that your game doesn't copy any aspect of the graphics or gameplay of Busy Burger too closely.
John West says:
I understand that there are other games of this type around...
John West says:
But you and I both know the difference between a game of the same genre and a game that copies the original gameplay aspects of Busy Burger.
Sean Spurr. says:
dont worry, i told him loads of things to do to it that makes it far better
Sean Spurr. says:
theres one where you run a mc donalds thats on the mcdonalds.nl site
Sean Spurr. says:
it's a bit different
John West says:
I guess we'll see how close it is when the game comes out, but I'd advise you to make sure that it's quite a bit different.



This is pretty sad… If you’re going to pay someone to write a game for you, why not base it on an original idea? Same thing with paying someone to design a website. If you’re paying for a designer, why not get a 100% original layout?

[John]

My guess would be he is doing all of the design work himself but he is not creative enough to do his own stuff...

[Emancipator]

Wow Westech that totally seems legit and up and up to me.

[Emancipator]

Hey Westech I hired a designer to make me a new site.. its going to be a gaming site, I didnt specify flash gaming , but it might end up being a flash game site. I told him I liked your website, gaming and apes. So he got me a sweet new site, crazyapegames.com

I think im going to put flash games on it, oh and could you send me your logo in a layered psd file so i could give it to my designer to make me a logo similar but not copied?

If any of it is the same its not my fault its my lieing cheating designers fault. I would give you his info but he doesnt have internet access, so I cant.

Yes I am harassing westech, cause as his buddy its my JOB. Not attacking anyone.. just poking fun at my budddy.

[James]

What a coincidence, I just saw your post and registered apecrazygames.com :eek:

[yanuart]

Hi, I'm the author of the game Busy Burger. We're at IPlayAllDay Studio has always try to create good games with high quality so that any webmaster who licenses it can get games worth their value.
There are few people who bid on our games and we do not disclose any informations regarding them. Basically, as a business entity, we always go with deals that benefits us and our clients the most.

I do not know what's my fault with Sean Spurr so that he said foul things about me and harash one of my client except that he did bid on one of my game few months ago which I refused and later after westech have closed the deal.
We never use webmaster's propositions to get more money by counter-offering to other webmasters, in this case, it's just a matter of time.

Anyway, we never thought competitions are bad. Competitions ensure us to make better games more and more. We never worry about people stealing our ideas since there's a lot more between "ideas" and "the actual finished game".
If you take a look at newgrounds, people there love my game and gave high rank. You can't have that for $*** ;)

Thank you

[Westech]

Hey, Yanuar. I'm sorry you were dragged into this. I'd just like to take this opportunity to tell everyone here that my dealings with Yanuar's company went very smoothly and he was extremely professional every step of the way. I would do definitely do business with IPlayAllDay Studio again.



Anyway, we never thought competitions are bad. Competitions ensure us to make better games more and more. We never worry about people stealing our ideas since there's a lot more between "ideas" and "the actual finished game".

That's a good way of looking at it. I guess it just upset me when Sean told me directly that he had hired someoone to make an exact copy of Busy Burger. I guess I should just relax and only worry about it when/if the clone game comes out. It could turn out to be nothing like Busy Burger, and unless he has an amazing developer working on it it won't turn out half as good.


If you take a look at newgrounds, people there love my game and gave high rank. You can't have that for $*** ;)

I agree 100% :)

[Emancipator]

hey Yanuart I dig your site and your games.. very creative stuff. And James you stole my domain? DAMN YOU!!!! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!